Response to “Lancelot, KDE and Gnome” (showed in Aaron-colour :) )
Well, this is one of the Aaron-style “explain to the unbelievers why they are wrong”. This is in response to http://blog.kov.eti.br/?p=19 (or you can see the translated version)
Disclaimer: I have nothing against Gnome, I am mentioning it since it was used as a comparison in the original post.
Well, as all trolls on the internet, you have a couple of things obviously not clear to you.
- Delusion 1. KDE is vapourware because Lancelot is not finished
First of all, Lancelot is project in the late phase of development (like amarok2) – usable but not finished. See the definition of vapourware if you don’t see where you are mistaken.
And, not to mention, that Lancelot was not intended to be a part of KDE’s base packages. It’s like saying that Gnome is vapourware because Gimmie is not finished.
- Delusion 2. KDE is copying Windows (again, example is Lancelot)
Well, as I see it, you either haven’t used the Windows’ menu, or you haven’t used Lancelot (I bet on the later). Apart from being a /menu/, what are the similarities? Comparing Lancelot to Kickoff or Gimmie (for Gnome) would be more accurate… although still incorrect.
Besides Lancelot’s “copying” Windows what arguments do you have that other parts of KDE’s desktop are copying it?
- Delusion 3. KDE stopped focussing on the desktop, and went to develop frameworks
Developing a complete desktop environment (with a lot more high quality applications than Gnome has for instance) have to begin with building a solid set of frameworks so that later development of actual applications would be easier, and that applications reach new levels of integration. (compare the so called Gnome Office with KOffice)
KDE 4.0 had most of the frameworks finished, and 4.1 is being built on that. If you are saying that KDE is still ignoring the desktop after the improvements in Plasma that will be in 4.1, than you’re either blind or just don’t want to see.
Conclusion: I was hoping that Aaron will be the only one that has to deal with persons like you, but, apparently (and unfortunately), I was not right.
The Gnome Office comment is a low blow and somewhat dishonest to boot. You know that Gnome Office went out the window when OpenOffice got released, OO.o practically is Gnome Office now. But even so AbiWord and Gnumeric compare favorable, Glom is turning out nicely, Karbon 14 can’t even start to compare to Inkscape and you don’t even have an equivalent to K3d.
I wouldn’t rest on the idea that KDE has better apps then Gnome, depending on what you do things might be reversed. Overall I would say the app situation still sucks for KDE and Gnome. Thats partially the distros fault for not including a better selection of apps but mostly the apps just aren’t done yet or don’t exist at all.
Comment by Imos — 4 July 2008 @ 10:06
You misunderstood me. I’m not claiming the superiority of KOffice compared to Gnome Office. I was talking about the integration and code sharing (mentioned in the context of frameworks).
Gnome Office is nothing more than a few completely separate applications (most not made as a part of Gnome project, TBH) packed together. No consistent interface, and no integration whatsoever.
And to add: I’m not talking about apps for Gnome (GTK+/Gnome) versus apps for KDE (Qt/KDE), but about applications that are a part of the Gnome and KDE projects respectively.
p.s. Inkscape rules, that is not disputed.
Comment by admin — 4 July 2008 @ 10:17
It`s strange when somebody doesn`t do a little research before writting how something that he doesn`t use suck. I mean, `Hey, apple didn`t used hfs as promissed on leopard, the new osx is vapourware` or something like this.
I can`t wait to try lancelot, I did try to build it a few months back, but without luck.
and I hope you have your fun creating it
Best Regards.
Comment by Tomaz Canabrava — 4 July 2008 @ 11:12
Well, it’s normal human behaviour
The build was broken for a long time – Widgets on Canvas transition related.
Thanks. Development is mostly fun. Debugging is not
Comment by admin — 4 July 2008 @ 11:26
@Imos: “OO.o practically is Gnome Office now”
I call bullshit on that. It would be more accurate to say OO.o destroyed any chance Gnome Office could have had to succeed.
Comment by Pau Garcia i Quiles — 4 July 2008 @ 12:00
I posted that in portuguese because it was mostly intended to be an “inside joke”, since Helio, from KDE/Mandriva and I are always making fun of each other’s choices, and since he had foreseen KDE4 as GNOME’s demise.
Now, the core of what I said is nevertheless my opinion indeed. Notice, though, that I am not using Lancelot as my reasoning, it was just something that got me into thinking. My opinion on KDE is that its UI is very bloated, and when I look at KDE4 (I actually have it installed and used it to know what I’m talking about) I see Windows Vista (I do use it once in a while, too, so I know what it looks like).
I also see Mac OS X in GNOME, for what is worth, and I don’t think ‘copying’ UI style/ideas is a bad thing, I just don’t like Windows Vista style.
I think KDE is moving in an even worse direction from a UI point of view than what it did from 1.2 to 2.0, and from 2 to 3, and now Lancelot is one thing I could use an example. It’s the kind of thing that makes the desktop get into the user’s way while he’s trying to get his job done. I don’t like the concept. It doesn’t mean I’m not thankful you are giving your time to create the code for the people who will enjoy it, and I’m pretty sure there are many!
As for being vapourware, that’s an oversimplification, I agree. What I mean is, from what I’ve seen, and from comments I keep reading, KDE4 is just not ready. It is not being shipped in distribution releases, and still has some stuff to go before it is not a regression from 3.5.
That’s all fine and good, I don’t expect a beast the size and complexity of KDE to be ready in a short amount of time. Nor do I dislike or disrespect the work the KDE guys do. I did use KDE 1.2 for some time, and I enjoyed it.
After KDE 2 and I couldn’t stand KDE anymore, but that is _my_ opinion, only, and I’m not claiming my opinion to be true.
I’m sorry if it sounds as if I’m simply trolling. What I’m actually doing is having fun over what Helio said, and trying to get my opinion through at the same time =).
Comment by Gustavo Noronha — 4 July 2008 @ 12:07
[...] Update: O autor to Lancelot encontrou meu post e fez um post em resposta; vale à pela ler o post e os comentários, especialmente a minha [...]
Pingback by kov » Blog Archive » Lancelot, KDE e GNOME — 4 July 2008 @ 12:12
wow, fs has to deal with a lot of akward people. probably means that there are insanely many ppl following fs.
i lol’d at the conclusion.
Comment by elveo — 4 July 2008 @ 13:05
kde4 has it`s UI bloated?
uh… there`s indeed a few ackward people around… o.o`
Comment by Tomaz Canabrava — 4 July 2008 @ 13:29
> KDE4 is just not ready. It is not being shipped in distribution releases,
Then what’s Fedora 9?
Comment by Kevin Kofler — 4 July 2008 @ 13:32
Yes, and a drawing of abacus is an oversimplification of a PC.
Well, it sounded just like that. By claiming something without examples, and without the ‘I feel like it… blah blah’, it IS just trolling. Maybe you did not intend to troll, but you did.
I’m used to “KDE is copying Windows”, “KDE is copying Mac”, “Java is slow” etc. claims, and most of the time I’m just ignoring the posters, but today I was inspired, and you posted a link on my blog so… I just couldn’t resist.
Everybody has a right to have an opinion, but the way you express it is what matters and what labels you.
Comment by admin — 4 July 2008 @ 13:44
@Gustavo Noronha
It’s funny because I think Gnome is similar to Windows and KDE to MacOs… opinions may differ, I suppose.
Comment by iazzi — 4 July 2008 @ 13:48
please notice that being like Windows is not a bad thing in itself, so I’m not criticizing Gnome for that, and I don’t think Gnome is a “copy of Windows”. I just had this feeling when I tried Gnome and I disliked it.
Comment by iazzi — 4 July 2008 @ 13:56
Gustavo: is that some kind of fear or what’s your intention to troll around?
Comment by anon — 4 July 2008 @ 17:11
@Pau Garcia i Quiles
Same difference. I have the feeling we are of the same opinion. Reread my second sentence and maybe you will see.
@iazzi
I always felt KDE (at least KDE4) = Windows + BeOS sprinkled with some MacOS X
and Gnome = MacOS X flavored with liberal helpings of Windows sprinkled with some OS/2
Comment by Imos — 4 July 2008 @ 17:20
I don’t know if default themes or people’s default choice is the reason for that, but, although I’ve almost never used Windows XP or later or KDE, I always had problems identifying which desktop a person was using until I got less than two meters near the screen.
Notice that’s my only impression about looks. I can’t say anything about usability, feel or any other stuff, besides people’s default choice of themes. I don’t know it that’s on purpose by the users and proponents of KDE, to attract Windows users.
One of the major differences I could notice from KDE and GNOME is how GNOME is much more simple and KDE gives many more options. Giving options is good, but putting them on the menu for every user makes it difficult to find what most users would like to change. GNOME, on the other side, has been criticized for its lack of or hidden options. So, it’s really a matter of preference.
And, like Gustavo has said, it’s good to have options that are free (as in freedom). I am glad we have KDE, GNOME and some many others.
What is really upsetting or funny is people saying that GNOME is dead because of KDE4. And since one KDE press contact has “trolled” about it, I wouldn’t find odd that Gustavo would “troll” back, just to be fun about it.
I know you can’t help taking his post too much seriously, but some of his points just show how different is the philosophy of GNOME and KDE projects, and as philosophies, they are subject to very strong opnions that the other end just cannot accept or agree with.
Comment by Thadeu Cascardo — 5 July 2008 @ 22:16
I’m not going to even respond to these comments about “trolling for a trolling” (“an eye for an eye…”), minimum distance of DE difference etc. Peace!
Comment by admin — 6 July 2008 @ 08:09
[censored]
If you ever feel the need to criticize everything, you end up writing your own OS or not using a computer. Good luck
There is always a need for design decisions sooner or later when you write a program. They can’t possibly always suit anyone’s need. Gnome has chosen to be simple to use but to lack functionnality and innovation (consider the difference between each release for an user’s point of view…), and KDE has chosen to start coding on a totally fresh codebase, encountering much bugs and regressions in terms of functionnality but being way more ergonomic and usable (imo). These are totally different approaches. They both have advantages and drawback. But if you’re here, you must be a linux user, so you know that YOU ARE THE ONE THAT CHOOSES THE SOFTWARE THAT YOU USE !
As a consequence, PEACE PLEASE ! XD
Comment by Neolander — 2 December 2008 @ 18:07