Not to be the default menu [Lancelot]
I have seen the proposals to replace the default Kickoff menu with Lancelot on a quite a few places now (the latest, which triggered me to write my stance on the subject, was a proposal on the (K)ubuntu brainstorm site).
In a nutshell, I’m against the idea. I was since the start (see for yourself in earlier blog posts and comments on commit-digest), and I don’t see I’ll change my mind in the foreseeable future.
There are a couple of reasons for this, some of them technical, and some personal.
The main personal reason is the fact that if Lancelot became the default menu, I would have to give up the absolute control that I have over it at the moment. It would have to fit the rest of the desktop in ways I don’t want it to (for example, the current resize-by-dragging-any-border-or-corner would have to be changed to resize-by-dragging-the-one-corner like the Plasma applets and the present Kickoff menu).
The second is that the development would be significantly slowed down because everything would have to pass a discussion whether it should be changed, and then whether the change is correctly implemented…
And the last, but not the least, I don’t consider L to be mature enough, and I don’t think it will be until KDE 4.3 (or maybe even later).
So, the point is that I’m very glad most of you like Lancelot, I’m more than glad that many of you are using it, but making it a default has absolutely no benefits at the moment. I would rather have it used by a smaller percentage of users whose choice was to use it, than to have it imposed onto the whole KDE user base.
Replacing kickoff with lancelot takes no more than 20 seconds. I don’t think this is a huge issue. You are right to say that if it was to become the default menu it would have to be more consistent with the rest of the desktop. And I guess if someone wants to go for it he can as a separate project, maybe a fork, right ?
I’ve been using lancelot for about a 3 weeks now and i find it quite nice, but I wanted to make a few observations :
1. When opening lancelot the search bar has focus but it seems like it doesn’t (no blinking cursor). It can confuse the user at first.
2. Haven’t found a way to add applications to favorites, either by drag and drop or with the menu editor.
3. No click activation triggers are very small and you need to target very well. How about making them *longer* since vertically they can’t get bigger ?
4. Applications in a category could appear in most frequently used order for efficiency. Or at least a mix of most-used and the rest alphabetically.
Thanks for your work
Comment by Nikos — 1 October 2008 @ 22:54
@Nikos: Right-click on the application that you want to add “add to favorites” should be available as a menu item.
Comment by tbocek — 1 October 2008 @ 22:59
I think you overestimate how much control you’ll lose just because you’ll have more “institutional” users (eg being default in Kubuntu).
Not being ready is a good reason though.
Comment by Ian Monroe — 2 October 2008 @ 01:37
To be honest, i fucking hate how plasmoids are resized, (as well the “resize-by-dragging-the-one-corner”)… HATE HATE HATE HATE
hard and non-intuitive for me to get a plasmoid in the right place/shape/size using that “scale” icon. No, i don’t want to hold down a constraint modifier key, this ain’t inkscape or blender.
I think it should be the other way around:
modify the ‘HIG’ and have things the way you did in Lancelot everywhere else.
I’m just expressing my personal point of view of course
Comment by Dread Knight — 2 October 2008 @ 02:03
I’ve been using lancelot for about a month now. I like it, but though it is not ready as default until it is more complete (I think especially on keyboard support) but I find it way better than kickoff.
No daily base use I’m missing one thing, when I search in the menu, and can not find what I’m looking for I delete the search word again, here I would wish L to automatic chance to the “applications menu” when the search field are empty.
Comment by Mar — 2 October 2008 @ 06:14
@all
but I still do think what I think.
Don’t get me wrong, I do think that L is better than K
@Ian Monroe
Wow, I haven’t seen you… well, since the Akademy 2007.
Comment by Ivan Čukić — 2 October 2008 @ 07:19
Lancelot is just ok.
Kickoff is just ok.
Raptor is something with promise.
The Mac dock innovated when it was introduced.
Win95 was changed into XP, which has morphed into the crazy, hectic, Vista menu.
Plasma, and everything it stands for, is supposed to innovate the desktop as we know it.
While I appreciate all the work everyone has done on Lancelot, we’re not innovating. It’s going to end up like Vista’s menu.
WE need to think outside the box here.
Plasma is FIXING a BORING desktop.
Plasma is FIXING the way icons behave on the desktop.
Plasma is FIXING the way widgets behave on the desktop.
Plasma NEEDS to fix the way programs are launched, AND managed.
Raptor has some promise.
But, in its current state, we’re still stuck with a desktop, a boring panel, a boring application menu, system tray, etc.
I see us getting there, but I don’t see Lancelot taking us there.
Comment by Jake — 2 October 2008 @ 15:43
One more thing…
Lancelot is like Starbucks. Starbucks used to make great coffee and espresso for the guy/gal on the run. They were the McDonald’s of coffee back in the day. Like most companies, Starbucks has lost their focus. Instead of just doing what they do great, offering coffee, now you can buy music, coffee mugs, coffee makers, candies, everything. Now, in 2008, the Starbucks company is hurting financially, big time.
Why? Simple.
The company LOST its FOCUS.
This same principle has been applied to Microsoft, and many other companies.
Then, here comes along Lancelot. Lancelot is trying to be the Starbucks, or Microsoft, of the “application launcher” menu.
When you read the description of Lancelot, it states that “Lancelot is an application launcher menu (or ALI) for KDE 4 designed to provide a place from which all your jobs begin. It provides quick access to applications, places, documents, contacts and system information.”
To me, the ALI has lost its focus. Focus, just as Starbucks and Microsoft has. Instead of making the Swiss army knife of application launchers, why not just make…a really intuitive, application launcher?
Leave out the file management. Leave out the contacts. Leave out the “places”.
Just focus on one thing: Application launching.
Dolphin does a great job of file management. Dolphin does a great job of finding “places”.
I have thousands of contacts, as does everyone else, why not just get me into my PIM quickly and efficiently, without having to load an “ALI” full of junk and crud.
I’m not trying to make fun of anyone, what I’m trying to do here is find the root problem, and suggest to not loose your focus.
Reinventing the wheel is not innovating.
Comment by Jake — 2 October 2008 @ 16:06
@Jake
Lancelot has /places/ because I want it to have. Lancelot has /contacts/ because I want it to have. Lancelot has /unread mail/ because I want it to have… I could go on forever like this.
… I’m too tired to answer all the things you mentioned, but I have to repeat myself “I’m making Lancelot to suit me, and if somebody else likes it*, the better!”
* and, as far as I can see from all the responses, most people do like it.
And, for the end, the classic Free Software answer:
If you want something else – make it yourself! (just like I did)
Comment by Ivan Čukić — 2 October 2008 @ 17:36
Hello Ivan! if you allow me
I want to say that I never looked at things from that point of view. It’s pretty obvious when someone talks about it. Not that I give much importance to defaults anyway…
I’m also sorry to hijack this space, but I left you a comment about your theme (slim-glow) in kde-look, but since it also has to do with plasma, and somehow with lancelot and that KDE integration, here is one of the questions I left you:
“Also, since you’re involved with plasma, can I ask you if the knotification dialogs could not be cut out? It would be nice if the frame started right above the taskbar. I don’t know if that’s a theme or plasma detail though. What i’m talking about is something like Lancelot’s aproach (great job on that one
)
Keep up the good work. We appreciate it!”
Cheers
Comment by Raul Silva — 2 October 2008 @ 19:36
Raul
Sorry, but I don’t receive notifications about new comments at kde-* so I haven’t seen the comment.
To be honest, I’m not sure what are you talking about
If you could make some mockups and post it to bugs.kde.org, that would be awesome 
Comment by Ivan Čukić — 2 October 2008 @ 19:49
Unfortunately, i’m not a good designer. However, since you don’t seem to recall what I’m talking about, that’s one more reason to post it in bugs.kde.org
Thanks for your response
Comment by Raul Silva — 2 October 2008 @ 20:43
First: Sorry for my inglish
Second: I’m just a user, I don’t know anything about programming, and like me there are a lot of people who is just using the software that you nicely are making.
Man, you scare me with your answer to Jake, believe me, it doesn’t fit with your “Software libre evangelist”, I think that if you are making Lancelot public, you should be prepared for this critics, sometimes they are gonna be good, sometimes not.
Finally, i really like Lancelot, so relax man!
Comment by Peyesein — 4 October 2008 @ 06:13
@Peyesein
I’m sorry I gave you chills
“Software libre evangelist” stands for the fact that (beside making it) I go around and give talks about it, and its benefits. But that’s beside the point here.
So, why was my reaction like this?
There are two types of criticism – constructive and useless.
Constructive is when somebody tries to improve on Lancelot. Although I haven’t agreed most of the time with the ideas I received, some of them will most probably be implemented when I get the chance. And those critics are always more than welcome.
Critics that tell me that I should have made a completely different program (like Jake suggested) and that most of Lancelot should be dropped out are useless. He doesn’t want to improve Lancelot, he wants a completely different program to be made.
I agree that I could have been pleasant and give an explanation why this and why that, like I did in the past so many times, but I sometimes get fed up (for example, I once received a “If you make it like the Vista menu, I’ll use it”… or the Plasma bickering Aaron had to deal with instead of all of us).
I was harsh in my response, but I haven’t really said anything untrue. Lancelot is my project, and I really am making it firstly to fit my needs, and the good thing is that, like I said, my needs are mostly matching the needs of others.
So to repeat the point, when you suggest an improvement, you’ll get a red carpet and fanfares, but when you just bicker (and, not, comparing me to MS didn’t help neither) you would be luckier if you haven’t got the response.
Cheerio
Comment by Ivan Čukić — 4 October 2008 @ 07:06
well, one thing that i would like to improve on lancelot is the icons when the option ” show categories inside the applet” is used.
they seem badly aligned, with the contact icon aligned a little lower than the rest.
maybe some improvement on the alignment or icons, or ability to choose the icons for each category ?
thanks for the great launcher
Comment by Yagami — 4 October 2008 @ 10:08
@Yagami
Unfortunately, that is due to the icons, not Lancelot.
I’m not sure about the configuration.
It will be possible, but not in the near future. (there are plans to make the categories customizable and to allow creation of custom categories, but that will have to wait).
Comment by Ivan Čukić — 4 October 2008 @ 10:40
For the issue of icon, I find that the icon for the application,contact, document, and parts is rather too big….
On small laptop is a little annoying…
Maybe a option to use smaller icons or even an option to choose text/icon/both
Lancelot does do things right, thank you!
Comment by Kira — 5 October 2008 @ 17:10
@Kira
Yes, I get that quite a lot. (I’m spoiled with 20+” screens) I’ll see what to do.
Comment by Ivan Čukić — 5 October 2008 @ 17:14
Ivan Ii think Lancelot is a great app. One question though, how do I cleaqr out my recent documents? Thanks
Comment by Dan — 24 October 2008 @ 12:45
Ok, I got it. Clear out kde menu then reload x server and its gone. Not greatest but works
Comment by Dan — 26 October 2008 @ 15:43
@Dan
The clear option will be added later (to the context menu).
Uh, sorry I missed your last message
Comment by Ivan Čukić — 26 October 2008 @ 15:57
Ivan, have you seen the kde 4.2 version of kickoff ?
It became sexier.
Comment by Megabigbug — 28 October 2008 @ 14:39
@Megabigbug
What are the differences? I see that the background (border of the window) is now Plasma’s (it has been for quite some time now). What else is new?
Comment by Ivan Čukić — 28 October 2008 @ 14:44
“What are the differences? I see that the background (border of the window) is now Plasma’s (it has been for quite some time now). What else is new?”
Nothing more ^^
show us your menu is different than the default.
But many people used your menu only because it was better integrated in kde.
Hurry up
Comment by Megabigbug — 28 October 2008 @ 19:58
@Megabigbug
I really have no time to do that… at least not more than I already did. Appearances of the menus are irrelevant imo.
Comment by Ivan Čukić — 28 October 2008 @ 20:02
functionality-wise your menu is awesome. other KDE menus are awesome as well. i like how you can do a lot with L. there is one thing that is common to all KDE menus though. how it tries to group similar apps. for example, say you have Kaffeine and SMplayer. normally they would be found under Media Players, w/c in turn is found under Sound & Video. maybe you could have L have an option that does not group these similar apps. instead everything is just under Sound & Video for apps that fall under the category of Sound & Video. so just one branc for that category, you don’t have to go down so deep. that is a lot of clicks or a lot of hovering your mouse to go to another sub-menu. waste of time.
yes people i edit my menu everytime i do a fresh install just to get rid of this sub-menu thingy. i know it’s not specific to L, Kickoff has it too and so does the default KDE menu. i guess this is something with KDE. i’m sure menu devs can do something about this.
watcha think?
Comment by yamz — 30 October 2008 @ 12:12
It is not even KDE specific. The .desktop files (as ordered by the FreeDesktop.org) contain the categories in which application should reside. And that’s it.
If, for example, Kate developers decided to place Kate into Games/Strategy, nobody could stop them
Comment by Ivan Čukić — 30 October 2008 @ 12:37
could you, would you give the option for L not to honor this order?
it’s not like we’re gonna break any proprietary thing here. at least it’s an option like a toggle that asks, “do you want to further narrow down the apps into sub-categories?” and then we click “NO!” to it. hehe.. . it would be awesome.
man from suse 9.3 up to kubuntu intrepid ibex, i have been editing my main menu by hand just to get rid of that sub-category (but i’m on XP now coz my Linux broke, ssshhhh.. .). it’s too many clicks. i’m sure i’m not the only 1 doing this.
hmmm. .. maybe i should just learn to script this? tell me where these .desktop files reside and i’m gonna let all hell break loose and do something about those files, by making something like a python or whatever script is capable of doing this. parse through all those things.. . LOL!
these are just text files, right?
Comment by yamz — 4 November 2008 @ 15:27
@Yamz
I can give you a short answer, and a long one.
The short one is “No!”
The longer is still no, but with a couple reasons:
* 1st (and ultimate reason) is that I am not willing to break any standardisation established in the Free/Libre Software world.
* 2nd is that Lancelot can not guess that you (and others) want application A to be in category C.
What I could do, though, is to make the subcategories concatenated to the main list (a la Tasty Menu). But, we’ll see about that.
Comment by Ivan Čukić — 4 November 2008 @ 15:34
hehe.. . you are a funny man, Ivan.
ok. good answer!
but you also didn’t answer my other question. where do these .desktop files reside or whatever file/s is/are responsible?
ok i couldn’t help it. LOL!
@1. no you are not breaking anything. you are merely giving the users an option whether they want sub-categories or not. the .desktop files w/c are ordered by freedesktop.org will remain the same. it’s only the presentation for the users – but this time with an option.
@2. lancelot will not guess. if the main category is Sound & Video, everything under it will be expanded (but don’t show the sub-category titles), not folded down to sub-categories. lancelot will not put app A in category C if it does not belong there in the first place.
Comment by yamz — 4 November 2008 @ 16:24
[...] Not to be the default menu [Lancelot] [...]
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