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	<title>Comments on: Mmm, more pies!</title>
	<atom:link href="http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/2010/02/09/mmm-more-pies/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/2010/02/09/mmm-more-pies/</link>
	<description>Free Software Developer and Enthusiast</description>
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		<title>By: Ivan Čukić</title>
		<link>http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/2010/02/09/mmm-more-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-12740</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivan Čukić</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 20:13:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/?p=747#comment-12740</guid>
		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-12730&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Fri13&lt;/a&gt;: Pies will be updated only on hover - so that the disk is not awaken - like in dolphin, but I&#039;m still going to retain them even in non-hovered mode.

@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-12732&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Chris&lt;/a&gt;: &quot;Expand the main widget&quot;

The point is that almost everything (that is, everything apart from the edit box and scrollbars) in L is the *same* widget called ExtenderButton and its private subclass ActionListItem which adds DnD support.

So, all list items in all lists and everything else is essentially the same widget.

All models have the same API.

Now, introducing another method to the model and a feature for the ExtenderButtton/ActionListItem for the sole purpose of having a bar below the text (which would replace the mount path, which IMO is more important) in *one* model is a bit overkill, don&#039;t you think?


&lt;b&gt;Ok, so, the best pro-bar reason I&#039;ve heard till now is &#039;other kde apps do it&#039;. You&#039;ll have to beat that one ;)&lt;/b&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a class="atr_link" href="#comment-12730" rel="nofollow">Fri13</a>: Pies will be updated only on hover &#8211; so that the disk is not awaken &#8211; like in dolphin, but I&#8217;m still going to retain them even in non-hovered mode.</p>
<p>@<a class="atr_link" href="#comment-12732" rel="nofollow">Chris</a>: &#8220;Expand the main widget&#8221;</p>
<p>The point is that almost everything (that is, everything apart from the edit box and scrollbars) in L is the *same* widget called ExtenderButton and its private subclass ActionListItem which adds DnD support.</p>
<p>So, all list items in all lists and everything else is essentially the same widget.</p>
<p>All models have the same API.</p>
<p>Now, introducing another method to the model and a feature for the ExtenderButtton/ActionListItem for the sole purpose of having a bar below the text (which would replace the mount path, which IMO is more important) in *one* model is a bit overkill, don&#8217;t you think?</p>
<p><b>Ok, so, the best pro-bar reason I&#8217;ve heard till now is &#8216;other kde apps do it&#8217;. You&#8217;ll have to beat that one <img src='http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/wp-content/plugins/smilies-themer/kopete/wink.png' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </b></p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/2010/02/09/mmm-more-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-12732</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:20:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/?p=747#comment-12732</guid>
		<description>Forgive me if I&#039;m missing the obvious but I don&#039;t get your first argument.

If you add a &quot;fill state&quot; to the model that represents the percentage of how much a disk is filled (0-100%) it would be perfectly fine to extend the main widget (showing only icon and name / path) by some other ones adding the specialized &quot;fill state representation&quot; logic (e.g. your current circle, vertical bars on the left, horizontal bars bellow the name / path and so on).

That way you would still have a clean model view separation with the possibility to use whatever visualization you want. What&#039;s the problem you see with this way?

Further I have to admit I didn&#039;t get the way your current circles represent the fill state either (starting at 3 o&#039;clock and going counter clock wise) until I read the comments here ;D.

Last but not least I think that bars are perfectly fine to represent a fill state since we are already used it on computers (e.g. from other file managers) as well as in real life (e.g. an half full / empty bottle).

So it is basically a matter of taste about which one shouldn&#039;t argue ;D (and my above suggestion would allow everyone to get what one prefers while keeping the model cleanly separated from the view).

Could you therefore please reconsider this or explain why you don&#039;t like this suggestion so I perhaps can convince you? ;D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Forgive me if I&#8217;m missing the obvious but I don&#8217;t get your first argument.</p>
<p>If you add a &#8220;fill state&#8221; to the model that represents the percentage of how much a disk is filled (0-100%) it would be perfectly fine to extend the main widget (showing only icon and name / path) by some other ones adding the specialized &#8220;fill state representation&#8221; logic (e.g. your current circle, vertical bars on the left, horizontal bars bellow the name / path and so on).</p>
<p>That way you would still have a clean model view separation with the possibility to use whatever visualization you want. What&#8217;s the problem you see with this way?</p>
<p>Further I have to admit I didn&#8217;t get the way your current circles represent the fill state either (starting at 3 o&#8217;clock and going counter clock wise) until I read the comments here ;D.</p>
<p>Last but not least I think that bars are perfectly fine to represent a fill state since we are already used it on computers (e.g. from other file managers) as well as in real life (e.g. an half full / empty bottle).</p>
<p>So it is basically a matter of taste about which one shouldn&#8217;t argue ;D (and my above suggestion would allow everyone to get what one prefers while keeping the model cleanly separated from the view).</p>
<p>Could you therefore please reconsider this or explain why you don&#8217;t like this suggestion so I perhaps can convince you? ;D</p>
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		<title>By: Fri13</title>
		<link>http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/2010/02/09/mmm-more-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-12730</link>
		<dc:creator>Fri13</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:21:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/?p=747#comment-12730</guid>
		<description>I would take the bars as well. The pie is always hard to read, even showing a single data.
And bars are not used anywhere else on KDE SC that it is not familiar to be see them in Lancelot while Dolphin and everything else use bars with background what makes them not to need the scale at all.

And the pie even takes big chunk away from the icons. And different colors are bad for space status because new/avarage user does not know what creen, yellow, red, blue etc colors mean. 

But there is some problems with Dolphin way as well. That the space bar is shown only when hovering over the device or it is selected. (but I got answer that is technical problem not to query all the times the disk space and waking up the disks from sleep etc).
Thats why I am littlebit questioning this pie even more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would take the bars as well. The pie is always hard to read, even showing a single data.<br />
And bars are not used anywhere else on KDE SC that it is not familiar to be see them in Lancelot while Dolphin and everything else use bars with background what makes them not to need the scale at all.</p>
<p>And the pie even takes big chunk away from the icons. And different colors are bad for space status because new/avarage user does not know what creen, yellow, red, blue etc colors mean. </p>
<p>But there is some problems with Dolphin way as well. That the space bar is shown only when hovering over the device or it is selected. (but I got answer that is technical problem not to query all the times the disk space and waking up the disks from sleep etc).<br />
Thats why I am littlebit questioning this pie even more.</p>
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		<title>By: Ivan Čukić</title>
		<link>http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/2010/02/09/mmm-more-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-12725</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivan Čukić</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 06:17:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/?p=747#comment-12725</guid>
		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-12719&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Federico&lt;/a&gt;: To repeat myself: &quot;But, you’re right, I’ll change it to feel more clock-like.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a class="atr_link" href="#comment-12719" rel="nofollow">Federico</a>: To repeat myself: &#8220;But, you’re right, I’ll change it to feel more clock-like.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Federico</title>
		<link>http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/2010/02/09/mmm-more-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-12719</link>
		<dc:creator>Federico</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 21:45:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/?p=747#comment-12719</guid>
		<description>Despite I am a physicist, I also agree with shamaz. Clock methaphor seems to be more intuitive to me than trigonometric circle: I noticed that I immediately watched at 12 o clock (north), expecting the graph to be on the right (clockwise)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Despite I am a physicist, I also agree with shamaz. Clock methaphor seems to be more intuitive to me than trigonometric circle: I noticed that I immediately watched at 12 o clock (north), expecting the graph to be on the right (clockwise)</p>
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		<title>By: Federico</title>
		<link>http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/2010/02/09/mmm-more-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-12718</link>
		<dc:creator>Federico</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 21:29:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/?p=747#comment-12718</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to see both implemented in a general class.
Just think of bars and pie graphs embedded in icons to show information such as the state of progress of a copy operation or a print operation.
I&#039;d love to see this idea comes to life:
http://forum.kde.org/brainstorm.php#idea38897

Great work!

Sorry for my bad english</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to see both implemented in a general class.<br />
Just think of bars and pie graphs embedded in icons to show information such as the state of progress of a copy operation or a print operation.<br />
I&#8217;d love to see this idea comes to life:<br />
<a href="http://forum.kde.org/brainstorm.php#idea38897" rel="nofollow">http://forum.kde.org/brainstorm.php#idea38897</a></p>
<p>Great work!</p>
<p>Sorry for my bad english</p>
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		<title>By: Ivan Čukić</title>
		<link>http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/2010/02/09/mmm-more-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-12715</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivan Čukić</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:28:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/?p=747#comment-12715</guid>
		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-12714&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Karl Ove Hufthammer&lt;/a&gt;: 

Well, the article you linked says exactly what I am speaking of, even when the author is biased. 

&lt;em&gt;&quot;Pie charts are not without their strengths. The primary strength of a pie chart is the fact that the message “part-to-whole relationship” is built right into it in an obvious way.&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

It goes on further to say:

&lt;em&gt;&quot;A bar graph doesn’t have this obvious purpose built into its design. Not as directly, anyway, but it can be built into bar graphs in a way that prompts people to think in terms of a whole and its parts. This can be accomplished in part by using a percentage scale. It is easy and natural to think in terms of various percentages in relation to...&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

I don&#039;t have the space to make *any* scales in bars. Or anything similar.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a class="atr_link" href="#comment-12714" rel="nofollow">Karl Ove Hufthammer</a>: </p>
<p>Well, the article you linked says exactly what I am speaking of, even when the author is biased. </p>
<p><em>&#8220;Pie charts are not without their strengths. The primary strength of a pie chart is the fact that the message “part-to-whole relationship” is built right into it in an obvious way.&#8221;</em></p>
<p>It goes on further to say:</p>
<p><em>&#8220;A bar graph doesn’t have this obvious purpose built into its design. Not as directly, anyway, but it can be built into bar graphs in a way that prompts people to think in terms of a whole and its parts. This can be accomplished in part by using a percentage scale. It is easy and natural to think in terms of various percentages in relation to&#8230;&#8221;</em></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t have the space to make *any* scales in bars. Or anything similar.</p>
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		<title>By: Karl Ove Hufthammer</title>
		<link>http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/2010/02/09/mmm-more-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-12714</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Ove Hufthammer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 16:34:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/?p=747#comment-12714</guid>
		<description>Pie charts may be the single worst way of displaying proportions, but when it’s used to represent only to categories (empty/used space), they are not &lt;em&gt;too&lt;/em&gt; bad. Still, there are better alternatives.

The reason why they are so based, was first studied by William S. Cleveland, and as a mathematician, I am sure you’ll appreciate his interesting original 1984 paper:

Graphical Perception: Theory, Experimentation, and Application to the Development of Graphical Methods
Author(s): William S. Cleveland and Robert McGill
Source: Journal of the American Statistical Association, Vol. 79, No. 387 (Sep., 1984), pp. 531-554
Published by: American Statistical Association
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2288400

For information specfically on problems with pie charts, the article ‘Save the Pies for Dessert’ by Stephen Few has a thorough discussion and several examples:
http://www.perceptualedge.com/articles/08-21-07.pdf

Personally (and as a statistician) I have severe problems reading the pie charts in your screenshots. I’m still not quite sure which parts represent the used and the empty space. (OK, after reading the stuff about colour, I understand which parts represent what, but I still don’t &lt;em&gt;perceive&lt;/em&gt; this when looking at the charts, and the use of blue as a colour makes the colour-coding even more unusual.)

The above problems disappear when using a &lt;em&gt;well-designed&lt;/em&gt; (horizontal or vertical) bar, where the empty (transparent) parts represents the empty space, and the filled part (starting from the left or the bottom) represents the filled/used space. (If you’re just using two different colours on the bar, part of the perception problem reappears; it must be an empty colour and a fill colour. The fill colour can be colour-coded, from green through yellow to red.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pie charts may be the single worst way of displaying proportions, but when it’s used to represent only to categories (empty/used space), they are not <em>too</em> bad. Still, there are better alternatives.</p>
<p>The reason why they are so based, was first studied by William S. Cleveland, and as a mathematician, I am sure you’ll appreciate his interesting original 1984 paper:</p>
<p>Graphical Perception: Theory, Experimentation, and Application to the Development of Graphical Methods<br />
Author(s): William S. Cleveland and Robert McGill<br />
Source: Journal of the American Statistical Association, Vol. 79, No. 387 (Sep., 1984), pp. 531-554<br />
Published by: American Statistical Association<br />
Stable URL: <a href="http://www.jstor.org/stable/2288400" rel="nofollow">http://www.jstor.org/stable/2288400</a></p>
<p>For information specfically on problems with pie charts, the article ‘Save the Pies for Dessert’ by Stephen Few has a thorough discussion and several examples:<br />
<a href="http://www.perceptualedge.com/articles/08-21-07.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.perceptualedge.com/articles/08-21-07.pdf</a></p>
<p>Personally (and as a statistician) I have severe problems reading the pie charts in your screenshots. I’m still not quite sure which parts represent the used and the empty space. (OK, after reading the stuff about colour, I understand which parts represent what, but I still don’t <em>perceive</em> this when looking at the charts, and the use of blue as a colour makes the colour-coding even more unusual.)</p>
<p>The above problems disappear when using a <em>well-designed</em> (horizontal or vertical) bar, where the empty (transparent) parts represents the empty space, and the filled part (starting from the left or the bottom) represents the filled/used space. (If you’re just using two different colours on the bar, part of the perception problem reappears; it must be an empty colour and a fill colour. The fill colour can be colour-coded, from green through yellow to red.)</p>
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		<title>By: shamaz</title>
		<link>http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/2010/02/09/mmm-more-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-12709</link>
		<dc:creator>shamaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 13:21:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/?p=747#comment-12709</guid>
		<description>@Ivan Čukić : ah ! :) the famous unit circle ! (we name this &#039;trigonometric circle&#039; in my France)
Now I understand :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ivan Čukić : ah ! <img src='http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/wp-content/plugins/smilies-themer/kopete/smile.png' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> the famous unit circle ! (we name this &#8216;trigonometric circle&#8217; in my France)<br />
Now I understand <img src='http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/wp-content/plugins/smilies-themer/kopete/smile.png' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Ivan Čukić</title>
		<link>http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/2010/02/09/mmm-more-pies/comment-page-1/#comment-12708</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivan Čukić</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 13:08:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/?p=747#comment-12708</guid>
		<description>@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-12703&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;shamaz&lt;/a&gt;: I&#039;m a mathematician, so the counter-clockwise is /natural/ to me :) But, you&#039;re right, I&#039;ll change it to feel more clock-like.

@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-12705&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Shyru&lt;/a&gt;: Finally a valid analogy for a bar. Still, it doesn&#039;t really convince me that bars are better. I&#039;ll ask Seele what she thinks.

@&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-12707&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Emil Sedgh&lt;/a&gt;: Yes, it is in the trunk - has been since my last blog post.

As for the sections, I&#039;ll probably make the order (thus allowing the change in the default shown item) customizable for 4.5 - like Favourites (amongst other parts) are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@<a class="atr_link" href="#comment-12703" rel="nofollow">shamaz</a>: I&#8217;m a mathematician, so the counter-clockwise is /natural/ to me <img src='http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/wp-content/plugins/smilies-themer/kopete/smile.png' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> But, you&#8217;re right, I&#8217;ll change it to feel more clock-like.</p>
<p>@<a class="atr_link" href="#comment-12705" rel="nofollow">Shyru</a>: Finally a valid analogy for a bar. Still, it doesn&#8217;t really convince me that bars are better. I&#8217;ll ask Seele what she thinks.</p>
<p>@<a class="atr_link" href="#comment-12707" rel="nofollow">Emil Sedgh</a>: Yes, it is in the trunk &#8211; has been since my last blog post.</p>
<p>As for the sections, I&#8217;ll probably make the order (thus allowing the change in the default shown item) customizable for 4.5 &#8211; like Favourites (amongst other parts) are.</p>
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