29 Comments

1. 

   This may be a silly question, but it has always bugged me: why does the “shelf” widget have a drawer for an icon?

   Comment by TheBlackCat — 24 October 2010 @ 05:22

2. 

   Epic music!
   Nice Screencast
   Thanks

   Comment by Benjamin M — 24 October 2010 @ 09:10

3. 

   @TheBlackCat: No particular reason – I’ve used the name shelf because it is used in OpenStep environment.

   But it behaves more like a drawer (term used by Gnome in the KDE 1.x era – don’t remember the Gnome version back then). So, it has the icon of a drawer.

   Comment by Ivan Čukić — 24 October 2010 @ 10:06

4. 

   I just watched the video, but either I missed something or there is really nothing I couldn’t do in previous version of the shelf.
   At least for me it seems that I could do all the things with the applet before(in previous versions) – Like putting it out from lancelot, defining it content in a menu, drag&drop and so on…

   am I right?

   (That is not meant to be an offense, summarize all possible thingsin a video is a good idea, and I like your video. However, a voiceover would be cool)

   regards.

   Comment by Burke — 24 October 2010 @ 12:33

5. 

   Well, to me it looks like a revolution.
   Get your docks away, Lancelot is there ! What you do at the 3rd minute is simply awesome, being able to drag and drop parts of the Lancelot menu into a big panel so it becomes like a kind of super-dock !

   I doubt every user will understand how to do so (it’s not that intuitive, still very easy to do), but it’s a wonderfull feature for the power-users.

   Comment by Plaristote — 24 October 2010 @ 12:58

6. 

   @Burke: Yes, most of the things were possible in 4.5 (and even before, when Shelf was called Lancelot Part), it is that now a few things are refined (for example the automatic sizing according to the number of items in the list, which looks rather cool IMO).

   And since I didn’t make a video before, I arranged it to look as if it were a ‘Shelf Intro’ as opposed to ‘New Shelf features for 4.6′ video.

   As for the voice-over, I know it would be better, but I wasn’t really in the mood to talk

   Comment by Ivan Čukić — 24 October 2010 @ 13:03

7. 

   @Plaristote: Thanks dude!

   The big-panel concept is a mostly hidden feature of plasma because who would even think of making a panel > 100px tall.

   But, for those that like playing with the environment, it produces kinda nifty /wow/ effect when discovered.

   All plasma-popup-based applets should be able to achieve something like this.

   Comment by Ivan Čukić — 24 October 2010 @ 13:07

8. 

   Brilliant work, Ivan! As usually. Thank you!

   Comment by Thomas Thym (ungethym) — 24 October 2010 @ 14:39

9. 

   @Thomas Thym (ungethym): Thanks Thomas, see you soon at some conference I hope

   Comment by Ivan Čukić — 24 October 2010 @ 15:38

10. 

    Good work, looks really great!

    Just curious, would it be possible to integrate this with kwin so new application windows appear to come from where the mouse was clicked?

    Preferably as some form of containment that appears the instant something is clicked, zooming in to fill the area of the screen the application will fill before transitioning to the actual application the moment it is loaded? A variation of the magic lamp effect here could make also everything look more integrated.

    Comment by Pete — 24 October 2010 @ 19:37

11. 

    @Pete: Nice idea, but I’m not sure how realistic it is (implementation-complexness-wise). I’ll propose it on the mailing list to see what others think about it.

    Comment by Ivan Čukić — 24 October 2010 @ 19:47

12. 

    There will be great if we could see text shadows like in folder-view plasmoid. On light plasma themes, with light wallpapers the text is almost not readable…

    http://picasaweb.google.com/v.kiril/KDEStuff#5531708450380851410

    Comment by Kiril Vladimiroff — 24 October 2010 @ 22:15

13. 

    @Kiril Vladimiroff: That depends on the theme. For an item to have the shadow, the following line in theme.config needs to exist (for the class of the item that needs the shadow)

    foreground.blurtextshadow=1

    Comment by Ivan Čukić — 24 October 2010 @ 22:29

14. 

    @Ivan, yep I’ve tested that.
    My point was about a feature as it’s own, like that one in folder view. Check out my screenshot and compare text in the folder view plasmoids with this in Shelf.

    Don’t you think such a feature, independent of theme would be useful?

    Comment by Kiril Vladimiroff — 24 October 2010 @ 23:21

15. 

    @Kiril Vladimiroff: I wouldn’t really impose it – if the theme is transparent, the author should add the blur request.

    Blurry shadows can look quite ugly in some occasions. And they slow drawing down (require more CPU cycles)

    The thing I’ll have to do is to add the ability to increase the shadow since the current one is not sufficient in all cases.

    Comment by Ivan Čukić — 24 October 2010 @ 23:39

16. 

    Ivan, this is awesome. It is the perfection of what you were doing with Lancelot (parts) all along, but now fully functional an beautiful. I agree that the auto-hiding panel as a dock for contacts, apps, etc. is a killer-feature and indeed something I have been wishing for for a long time.

    Thank you for your efforts. I am looking forward to 4.6. It will be a sweet release.

    Cheers!

    Comment by mutlu — 25 October 2010 @ 00:25

17. 

    hi

    looks realy good.

    Is it possible, that when I’d like to start an application like krita, that when I write krita at the search area, I find the application and also the last documents i’l open with krita.

    thanks for your work.

    Comment by andreas — 25 October 2010 @ 15:13

18. 

    @andreas: Yes, that will be possible to do from a lot of places in Plasma, but not before 4.7.

    We’ll need usage tracking in activities (which I’m working on atm) and when we get that and apps start using it, things like above (and much more) will be possible.

    Comment by Ivan Čukić — 25 October 2010 @ 18:32

19. 

    @Ivan Čukić: @TheBlackCat: Yeah, (I took a while to watch this video — mostly ’cause I couldn’t from work — but) I thought the same about the applet: it’s a drawer, but not because of the icon but mainly because of what it does. If you follow the desktop metaphor, this applet is more to a drawer (keeping stuff inside — and as you already pointed out) and a shelf is pretty basicly what we call the panel.

    BTW, IMHO, poor current name for the latter, since Shelf would bring a bit more of a notion to a completely new user about what it does and what it is there for. At the metaphor (as at plasma) you have various stuff you want to have around and can place at you Desk(top) (some pictures, some files/folders you work with, a fancy clock etc) but it’d be too clumsy to have ‘em all there and, not only that, some you want/need to keep an eye on. Then you place’em at this smaller and near spot, easy to reach (even if it just needs a glance once a while), like your clock/calendar/wheather display, a monitor for something you need to pay attention (system/network/whatever-you-want monitor), frequently needed tools (launchers/quicklaunch), tools you took (launched) and got working with now but not at the present moment (taskbar) and so on. See? And an auto-hiding one is not more than a sliding shelf.

    That said, I’d like to ask something: do you see a possibility for KDE to give it this more new-user friendly name (sure, you’d have to change this applet to Drawer, too)? I’d like to suggest it but I’m not always seeing KDE is quite concerned about first-time/non-regular users friendliness … If all this I said about the panel and applet’s names and function/behaviour made sense, would you (greatly well involved KDE developer) propose it? I don’t care for taking credit for the proposal (I’d be pleased to be mentioned as pointing it out only, though ). I only mind and would be satisfied if I can teach, for example, my mother and non-techie people else I teach (I also used to be a “IT basics” teacher and I tell: in a hard-to-remember matter on a desktop, what to expect from the panel — or, better, how to explore its best — only seconds the taskbar) so I can say: “it’s the Shelf, you can place or take away what you want or not here as you would in a shelf on your desk” and get the concept understood with a simple association and remembered everytime of reading the widget’s name (shelf) is enough. That might sound silly but for non-tech people Panel brings no recollection of the correct concept (you don’t have a panel at you desk and usually you can’t add/remove buttons, meters and even less whatever you want to/from a physical panel). That’s why Dock, despite also far from the metaphor, is easier: at least it quicly says what it’s there for.

    Thank you a lot for your time, patience and kind attention.

    Cheers

    Comment by J. Janz — 4 November 2010 @ 02:58

20. 

    @J. Janz: While I agree with most statements, there is one huge problem – it has been called a panel since KDE, Gnome, and all others exist. So, I don’t think it is going to change.

    It is always a problem to name the semi-abstract things in the computer world using already existing real-world things. The current naming headache is the “activity”, mostly because it can be used for a lot different concepts. (see KDE pre-4.5, post, Gnome…)

    Comment by Ivan Čukić — 4 November 2010 @ 13:08

21. 

    Thanks for the video. It helps to understand possibilities of this applet.

    I use it for some days, now. I like it. It’s not very different of using a panel or a dock. But I allways miss 2 little things:
    1. autohide feature (like in panel). And the opposite: auto-display when the mouse hit the border of the screen.
    2. icons only view. I can’t resize the Shelf to display icons only, neither I can hide some part of it outside the right border of the screen.

    Is that design decision? or do you plan to add more features?

    Comment by Xavier Brochard — 4 November 2010 @ 17:03

22. 

    @Ivan Čukić: Yeah, I’m aware of that. I’m using KDE since 2.something and one thing always bothered me was this thing’s name, panel. No problem for me but an odd name (since it could be better) and back then (actually, no much more than like ’till 2 years ago) I had no idea I could get close to KDE project and, so, suggesting this change never occurred to me since then.

    However, I think time or anything related shouldn’t be seen as a barrier against any change, being it an improvement. Ok, by now KDE users might be used to this name (or at least accepted it, as me) but we might remember we’re always getting new users. People that mostly come from windows where that thing is called the taskbar, the whole bar, not only the spot where windows’ representations are. Then they come from an awful name that gives no idea about its potential/behaviour other than tasks can be done there to another that only says it has buttons to push, controls to operate and stuff to monitor (thinking about day-by-day panels for non-geeks — car’s panel come to mind). While both do tell the user a general concept, they miss informing about a major feature: it can be explored, customized to meet the needs. And, specifically to Plasma, it doesn’t give away this great feature: you can share widgets between desktop and shelf, I mean, err, panel. That is, you want to have this folderview on your desktop easy to get, no matter how many windows are opened? Drag it to a shelf you find convenient (as your desk may have more than one, so can your pc’s desktop)!

    I see naming a bigger issue in KDE than in gnome, for example. Pager is another thing that takes you to a word not said ’till then: Page?! No, it switches between desktops … like turning pages … Oh, ok … Desktop Switcher. Done. i think Activities kind of are going the same place.

    And I have to say, I think I don’t get Activities completely yet! i don’t see where it doesn’t replace Virtual Desktops’s functionality, fulfilling it with benefits. Ok, I can have an Activity with 2 or 3 Virtual Desktops inside but, differently from before Activities, I won’t use Virtual Desktops to separate purposes of my desktop uses (that’s what activities are for) but only to extend current desktop within that activity, if I feel i need to. The way I see, Activities do sound like close to what gnome3 call it except they seem to be nothing more than just renaming virtual desktops. Well, in fact they actually are kind of similar (a virtual desktop that informs the user its explicit purpose and that are created/deleted when needed, rather than just being some extra space that my distro placed there). But that’s until you need more space to one activity (*then* you’ll recur to actual virtual desktops inside that activity). That is, Activities could easily (i mean “easily” in its concept matter) be turned into this more friendly concept of virtual desktop (basicly what we achieve through “Different widgets for each desktop” Virtual Desktop’s option but switching Activities through a Pager with more thought put on). Then it would have this option to extend that desktop, firing on demand what we know as adding a virtual desktop (dragging a window outside limits comes to my mind right now and then switching desktops holding that window — and the switch on that condition is already available through current desktop cube plugin). I’m thinking the user finding himself half way draging it between desktops, like http://pcquest.ciol.com/2007/images/ho_pcqlinux01_apr2k7.jpg but on 2 cases: firing http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5DI5JdkNmNU/SmocVWfew4I/AAAAAAAAAJs/nyu7eoWw0p4/s400/desktopPreView.png to look simplier and allowing the user to drag as many windows as wanted between them or, to feel more like that extended desktop, then it could be more like on http://news.opensuse.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/cube-deform-cylinder.jpeg … Maybe if in the first case the desktops see no or little space between them it’d already feel more like extended and less like a whole other desktop. And, sure, if you don’t have desktop effetcts I think a huge (current) Pager, so to speak, or alike, in a layer on top of it all (like Plasma’s Dashboard) would perfectly do it (it behaves just the same).

    Alright, I’m saying too much (then I’m starting with activities — you mentioned and I got into helping automatic mode and thus my so called comment got more than double sized — and I’m afraid of when I’m gonna stop )! This (your page’s comments space) ain’t the place to be this detailed. Do you think any of these ideas is helpful? Naming better would make newcomers more easily at home? Do you find this Activities / Virtual Desktops idea would help to get through the issue (and also bring a more intuitive use for each)? Explaining these thoughts a bit more (somewhere else — suggestion? ) would help KDE? If so, I’ll be pleased to (and would appreciate any support you could give, if so). Other than that I’m just boring you and I really don’t want that.

    So, again, thank you for your attention and patience.

    Comment by J. Janz — 4 November 2010 @ 17:06

23. 

    @Xavier Brochard: If you place it into a panel that auto-hides, it will.

    As for the icons-only view… hmh… I was thinking about that a couple of times, but never actually started working on it. Maybe it will happen some day.

    @J. Janz: Ok, first of all I’d suggest you join plasma-devel mailing list, and share the ideas.

    The naming is always a problem – that is why applets usually have a description as well. Switcher? Do you really consider it to be a good name? What does it switch?

    As I said, no term will ever be good for anything computer-related. Windows? Buttons? Cookies? Just imagine you’ve gone to the middle-ages, say to anybody ‘drag the top of the window with your mouse to move it, and then click the window below’ …

    As for the activities, explaining them will require a separate blog post I was planning to write for quite some time now, but haven’t got the time. Probably it’ll happen before 4.7 (when activities are more integrated and useful)

    Comment by Ivan Čukić — 4 November 2010 @ 17:48

24. 

    @Ivan Čukić: I think you missed the “Desktop” on “Desktop Switcher” …

    And thank you for the answer (and time to read all of this). I’ll wait for the blog post. And if people get into needing ideas for integration, well, I offer these thoughts I wrote (beggining with “That is, Activities could easily” [...] ’till the end of the same paragraph), which I is the more integrated and simplier I can think of (maybe, if interesting, if I explain better there’s something one could use).

    Thanks again, also for the great work you guys put on KDE.

    Comment by J. Janz — 5 November 2010 @ 00:06

25. 

    @J. Janz: Oh, ok Desktop switcher makes more sense. But, again, it is not something that is natural – you don’t really switch desktops (aka the thing with the wallpaper), but groups of apps that are strangely named virtual desktop

    As I said, the best place for all discussions is the mailing list – there are more of us (devels) over there and although I might not agree with you, somebody else could (and vice versa obviously)

    Comment by Ivan Čukić — 5 November 2010 @ 08:38

26. 

    Ivan: yes, placing the applet into a panel let me auto-hide it. But there is some problems with that and it let me discover a few bugs :-).
    I can report them into bugzilla, but may be it is better to discuss them here first?

    Comment by Xavier Brochard — 5 November 2010 @ 16:12

27. 

    @Xavier Brochard: Please do post them in bugzilla – that’s what it is for. Tha tway I have the track of what was done and what needs to be.

    Comment by Ivan Čukić — 5 November 2010 @ 17:49

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